{"id":7022,"date":"2018-09-10T15:29:42","date_gmt":"2018-09-10T09:59:42","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/?p=7022"},"modified":"2018-09-11T09:17:28","modified_gmt":"2018-09-11T03:47:28","slug":"interview-with-andrew-hunt","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/2018\/09\/10\/interview-with-andrew-hunt\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Andrew Hunt"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>This time we bring you conversation with a Programmer turned consultant, author and publisher &#8211; Andrew Hunt.<\/p>\n<p>Andy is a founder of the Pragmatic Programmers and Agile Alliance. He is one of the original co-authors the Agile Manifesto, and authored several books not just on programming, Agile methods and learning, but also on science fiction and adventure. An active musician and woodworker, \u00a0Andy looks for new areas to explore, learn and share.<\/p>\n<p>In this interview, we discussed about what will Agile be beyond 2018.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Q1. \u00a0It is almost 17 years ever since <i>Agile<\/i> has came into existence. Do you believe it has achieved what it aimed for, by the 17 precious minds? <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think the movement was very successful in some regards, and certainly raised the overall discussion and level of awareness of how we should and should not try to develop software. Some particular practices have seen widespread and successful adoptions, and that\u2019s all great.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">However, many organizations are still underperforming and are not able to generate value from their software development projects. They aren\u2019t being effective, and don\u2019t understand what the problem is. They still don\u2019t understand what it means to be Agile.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Worse, perhaps, the major \u201cAgile\u201d methods themselves have not appreciably changed in all these years. The Agile methods themselves don\u2019t seem to be very Agile, ironically.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Q2. Have you ever been disappointed by the way Agile is being implemented in any organization\/team and went off track? Please share your experience. <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Constantly. I\u2019ve met teams who\u2019ve claimed \u201cwe\u2019re agile, we use Jira\/Rally\/VersionOne!\u201d Teams where the continuous build runs on Friday. Where version control check-ins only happen once every two weeks. Where the version control system in use is Microsoft Outlook(!). Where the Stand Up meeting runs forty-five minutes. Where rough estimates with insufficient data are taken as contractual, binding promises.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I worked with a team once who was so intent on perfecting their process (XP in this case), that they practically used User Stories on cards to decide on where to go for lunch. In their zeal for Agile adoption, the process itself became the focus of their work, instead of merely a means to an end to deliver product.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Recently I had some developers tell me, with a straight face, that they weren\u2019t allowed to do incremental or iterative development. They could only deliver once, as \u201cgold master\u201d at the end of a multiyear development project. No review, no feedback before then, not even internally. I tried emailing them last week to see how it went, but all the emails bounced. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Apparently they are no longer in business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Q3. Certification or Experience &#8211; it is much discussed among Agile practitioners; what can take anyone\u2019s career to next level, according to you?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Certification is nonsense. It is a very poor proxy by which to judge past experience or future performance. There is absolutely no substitute for experience, certainly not simple course attendance, or performance on a low-fidelity, written test instrument. There is plenty of research in learning transfer that confirms that common certification assessment approaches simply don\u2019t work.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The whole game of software development is about communications and learning. How well do you communicate to other developers? To the users? To the project sponsors and executives? How fast can you learn? Not just tech, but the evolving system, the dynamics of the team, of the user\u2019s experience, etc.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To get your career to the next level, those are the areas you need to work on. Improve your ability to learn quickly, thoroughly. Improve your critical thinking skills. Learn to be a better listener.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those are the sorts of things we need assessments on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Q4. Do you find any myths floating in the community about Agile methodology? Please share 3 such myths that are critical to be eliminated.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201cThis time it will be different.\u201d Oh really? What have you changed? What are you doing differently? Agile is about embracing change and using it for competitive advantage. If you and your team haven\u2019t changed anything\u2014your process, your techniques, your skills\u2014then you\u2019ll struggle to even get the same results as last time. More than likely, results will be even worse.<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201cBest practices.\u201d Best for who? Under what circumstances? In what context? There is no such thing as a general \u201cbest practice,\u201d everything depends on context. For example, in what quadrant of the Cynefin space does your problem lie? Different types of problem spaces require different approaches, and a best practice in one area can easily be disastrous in another.<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201cJust do this process.\u201d It is very pleasant to think that if we could just follow this particular process that all our problems would be solved. But that\u2019s an exceptionally naive approach. A process is only one tool in the toolbox. It can help talented, skilled practitioners achieve their goals, but no process is a substitute for thinking. Or for skill.<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>Q5. What does real Agile mean? If you have to redefine it and introduce back to the community, how would it be?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Agile is not something you do. Agile is not Scrum, XP, Lean, or the ironically-named \u201cSAFe.\u201d Agile is not Jira. Agile is not git. Agile is not Docker, or DevOps, or functional programming, or any other particular tool or technique.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u201cAgile Development uses feedback to make constant adjustments in a\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">highly collaborative environment.\u201d (Practices of an Agile Developer, Subramanium &amp; Hunt).<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It\u2019s all about feedback. From unit tests and TDD, from users and live systems in the actual user\u2019s context, from fellow developers, from future maintainers. Being Agile means seeking constant, real-time feedback, and acting on it immediately. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A common metaphor that\u2019s used relates Agile to steering a car: a frequent cause of crashes from new drivers is overcorrecting. An inexperienced driver will catch the shoulder of the road and yank the steering wheel violently to the other side, resulting in a crash. And so it is with feedback: <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">small<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> corrections, frequently applied, will steer the project in the right direction. Rapid and violent course corrections can easily result in disaster.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Q6. Where does Agile go from here? What do you wish for it beyond 2018? <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would like to see an emphasis on individuals and interactions over processes and tools. That\u2019s the first item on the Agile manifesto (<\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/agilemanifesto.org\/\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">agilemanifesto.org<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">) and apparently still one of the hardest to get right. Let\u2019s start with that and really, actually, do it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Stop abdicating to popular tools, methods, and fads. Do what works for this team, in this context, to produce some small bit of business value constantly. Ship continuously. Learn and improve, continuously. That\u2019s what it\u2019s all about. That\u2019s all you need.\u00a0And that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re advocating in our work with The GROWS Method\u2122 (<a href=\"http:\/\/growsmethod.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-saferedirecturl=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/url?hl=en&amp;q=http:\/\/growsmethod.com&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1536723260573000&amp;usg=AFQjCNHGek2aUz6XSs07XtA33eDycZShTQ\">growsmethod.com<\/a>). It&#8217;s early still and there is much work to be done, but I&#8217;m convinced it&#8217;s the only viable way forward.<br \/>\n<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Q7. Please share your insights on concept of <i>Pragmatic Thinking and Learning<\/i>. <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pragmatic Thinking and Learning<\/span><\/i><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is a book I wrote in 2008, based on several years of research, presentations and workshops I had given. It covers a number of techniques to help learning and creativity, including things like mindmaps, reading techniques, how to take advantage of hypnagogia, and other bits and pieces from cognitive and neuroscience. It\u2019s a collection of good ideas that seem to be helpful.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><strong>Q8. What would be your message for young generation of Agile practitioners? Please share some Do\u2019s and Don\u2019ts. <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Andy: <\/span><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DO get feedback from all the things. Code, people, process, whatever<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DO favor individuals and their dynamic interactions over any static processes and tools<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DO take small bites, always<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DO change one thing at time<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DON\u2019T guess. Experiment and find out<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DON\u2019T keep code or process that\u2019s passed its expiration date. Throw out code you\u2019re not using. Prune processes relentlessly<\/span><\/li>\n<li style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">DON\u2019T do fortune-telling. <\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We are terrible at trying to predict the future, whether it\u2019s an estimate or guessing how a design or architecture might evolve to meet future needs. Don\u2019t guess the future, we\u2019re bad at it (as a species). Instead of trying to make software maintainable or extensible, make it replaceable. Make it easy to throw away and replace with a more appropriate solution when the time comes. Because then, and only then, will you accurately know what you need.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Don\u2019t guess. Know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" data-attachment-id=\"7138\" data-permalink=\"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/2018\/09\/10\/interview-with-andrew-hunt\/andrew-hunt-287x300\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/Andrew-Hunt-287X300.png?fit=287%2C300\" data-orig-size=\"287,300\" data-comments-opened=\"1\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"Andrew Hunt 287X300\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/Andrew-Hunt-287X300.png?fit=287%2C300\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/Andrew-Hunt-287X300.png?fit=287%2C300\" class=\"alignleft wp-image-7138 size-thumbnail\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/Andrew-Hunt-287X300.png?resize=150%2C150\" alt=\"\" width=\"150\" height=\"150\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/Andrew-Hunt-287X300.png?resize=150%2C150 150w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/Andrew-Hunt-287X300.png?resize=60%2C60 60w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 150px) 100vw, 150px\" \/>Andrew Hunt writes books on software development and science fiction. He co-authored <em>The Pragmatic Programmer<\/em> and many other good reads including <em>Learn to Program with Minecraft Plugins<\/em>, the popular <em>Pragmatic Thinking and Learning: Refactor Your Wetware<\/em> and the Jolt-worthy <em>Practices of An Agile Developer<\/em>. His science fiction books include the novel <em>Conglommora<\/em> and <i>Conglommora Found<\/i>. He was one of the 17 original authors of the Agile Manifesto and founders of the Agile Alliance.\u00a0He and partner Dave Thomas founded the Pragmatic Bookshelf series of books for software developers. He also plays the trumpet, flugel horn, and keyboards. Find him online at <a href=\"http:\/\/toolshed.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\" data-saferedirecturl=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/url?hl=en&amp;q=http:\/\/toolshed.com&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1536723260573000&amp;usg=AFQjCNEwBM1XaTBKTHacnmXhOalCCFdPVg\">toolshed.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>This time we bring you conversation with a Programmer turned consultant, author and publisher &#8211; Andrew Hunt. Andy is a founder of the Pragmatic Programmers and Agile Alliance. He is one of the original co-authors the Agile Manifesto, and authored several books not just on programming, Agile methods and learning, but also on science fiction [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":7137,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[9],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-7022","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interview-series"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/Andrew-Hunt-Interview-Banner.png?fit=3125%2C1709","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p8Rui8-1Pg","jetpack-related-posts":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7022","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=7022"}],"version-history":[{"count":9,"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7022\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":7156,"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7022\/revisions\/7156"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/7137"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=7022"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=7022"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/innoroo.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=7022"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}